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I had some stuff to say, but I've rearranged my priorities. Thanks to [info]misia for the head-out-of-the-fucking-sand.

Legal abortion will be a bygone before 11yo can vote. I feel that in my heart. The new South Dakota law is designed to go to the Supreme Court.
Women will still have abortions.
Illegal does not have to mean unsafe.

These folks have printed detailed instructions on how to perform the procedure. I don't advocate anyone trying a medical procedure without a license, but protest and compassion come in all sorts of forms. Click. Download. Save. Print. Keep multiple copies. Disseminate if you can, keep it to yourself if you can't. Women and girls will need this information and it's up to us to provide it.

Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 at 10:01 am | | Leave a comment | Add to Memories | Tell a Friend

Comments


[info]chreebomb

saved. thank you.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 04:55 pm (UTC) | | Thread | Reply

[info]congogirl

I've been communicating with [info]bananapouch and [info]freshgroundfemm about this. Wish I'd started clinical training already.

Thanks for that frank perspective: illegal does not have to mean unsafe. We tend not to acknowledge this.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 05:01 pm (UTC) | | Thread | Reply

[info]ulitave

never too late to start. We're not going back.

As I commented to dicemonkey, we should learn how to do a number of things while the information is out there. How are condoms made? How are birth control pills made?
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 06:55 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]congogirl

You'll have to start keeping sheep in your backyard too, unless you know how to manufacture latex!

(Sorry. Ahem. You are right. This is very serious.)

Truly, your indicating that we should print, save, disseminate made me realize that a link on the Internet won't do any good if Big Brother cracks down. I had seen the link before, but figured that I can always go back. Not necessarily true.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 07:51 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]ulitave

hey, this is Texas. We got sheep.

This whole discussion made me realize that chicken eggs are used to do a lot of things besides make omlets. I should find out what.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 08:26 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]congogirl

Taking paint off cars?

Oh, you meant constructive things... well, some people grind up shells and put them in the soil for nourishing plants.

Some paints and lacquers have egg in them.

As does my grandma's rum cream pie.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 08:45 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]ulitave

I know they're used to make many vaccines too...hmmm...
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 08:56 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]dicemonkey

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

The plurality of women that get abortions are poor and generally not well educated. The odds of them, or people they know, being able to do this procedure successfully are likely not the best.

The training it takes to be a doctor takes 10+ years for a reason. And while these instructions may seem easy in the abstract, with a live bleeding body in front of you is totally different. Especially if there are any of a number of complications that can come up.

I mean its obviously better than the coathanger method, but I'm not sure I feel right distributing this information to un or underqualified individuals.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 05:54 pm (UTC) | | Thread | Reply

[info]hiyella

That's an interesting statement and I wonder where why would you think that poor and uneducated women make up the bulk of those seeking abortions. If anything, everything I have ever read on the statistics of abortion states that just the opposite is true. 4 out of 5 abortions are given to women who are married, already have children, and do not want more.

The statistics also bare out that: more rich women have abortions than poor women. More white women have abortions than black or latino women. And more blacks and hispanics die during their abortions, perhaps due to the disparity in the quality of their healthcare.

I am all for you deciding not to pass on any information that you aren't comfortable sharing. But I wonder as to how you came by these ideas that abortion is a poor, uneducated girl's problem.

Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 06:28 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]dicemonkey

Hmm, I guess I might be misinformed about the abortion stats then. I got mine from reading Freakonomics, and not scientific study on the subject.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 06:37 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]ulitave

Freakonomics is Ayn Rand for boys. Stay away from that shit before we find you sleeping on the Drag under a newspaper.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 06:53 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]dicemonkey

Well, the part about abortion and the crime rates in it is certainly . . . out there.

But a fair amount of his analysis on other subjects in there (real estate, education) don't seem too off the wall.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 06:56 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]juliarandolph

Yet another reason not to read that.

(It came into the house as a present. Recipient was skeptical about it before its arrival, and to the best of my knowledge, nobody has started into it.)
Posted on Mar. 2nd, 2006 03:36 am (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]ulitave

well said.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 06:43 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]lula_neith

Yep, yep

The rich will never want for well-trained Health Professionals to perform the procedure. Money talks.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 07:21 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]perigee

Medicine happens without doctors all the time, so do life and death decisions.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 06:37 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]erinlefey

As the medicine woman returns to us, into our welcoming and desperate arms. Everything old is new again.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 07:16 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]ulitave

First, I would challenge your assertion. I don't agree with the "plurality...well educated" statement. I'd have to look up the studies to make an argument out of it, but my anecdotal evidence says that the majority of women who seek abortions are college-educated and from middle-class backgrounds.

Second, I think the point is moot. Once Roe is overturned, many states will outlaw all abortions, even in cases of rape, incest, or extreme danger to the woman's health. Only super-wealthy women will be able to fly to other countries and get legal abortions. Everyone else will have to find some other option. This is the safest one.

Remember that the same people who want to reverse Roe v. Wade also want to kill health care clinics in most areas, end the type of science-based health classes we had when we were kids, promote Creationism, and restrict or ban access to birth control.

I don't know how to perform an abortion and I really don't want to learn. I may have to. I can see a future where I learn how to make condoms, make birth control pills, teach reproductive anatomy, geology, any number of things, because they've all been outlawed and maybe I'm an outlaw.

Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 06:41 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]dicemonkey

If that kind of future occurs, I'd want to be a rogue air-conditioning repair man. Working outside the beaurocracy. Slipping in under the cover of darkness in camo, fixing it, and slipping out without a trace of my presence except for the now functional air conditioner.

And yes, I know the big zealots in favor of killing Roe v. Wade are also in favor of those things. But I do not see that as relevant to my point that I don't feel comfortable with giving out this information to non-trained people.

I think we can all agree that the likelyhood for complications in an abortion would go up if you have John or Jane Q. Citizen following internet instructions, rather than a medical professional.

And I honestly do not know what the percentages would be. Would the woman die twice as often? Would she be rendered effectively sterile 3 times more frequently?

I mean there has to be a break over point where the additional risk to the woman is not worth performing the abortion.

And thus I am uncomfortable with disseminating this information.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 06:53 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]erinlefey

I think you have a very valid point. This is the worst case scenario. I have some medical training, and more biological training that easily 99% of the world. (And you know this doesn't mean much, really.) And at that, the description of the procedure nearly turned my stomach.

But I'll still learn how, and still do it. And hate every step of the way. Because that breakover point you mentioned is real, on a personal basis. There are too many situations women can be in where the issue will be "I would rather die than bear this child" or "If I bear this child, my other three children will starve".

I'd like to save the lives I can.

Just wanted you to know that I feel you have very valid points. I wish we didn't have to ponder this at all.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 07:14 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]ulitave

from molly saves the day...

"In the 1960s and early 1970s, when abortions were illegal in many places and expensive to get, an organization called Jane stepped up to the plate in the Chicago area. Jane initially hired an abortion doctor, but later they did the abortions themselves. They lost only one patient in 13,000 -- a lower death rate than that of giving live birth. The biggest obstacle they had, though, was the fact that until years into the operation, they thought of abortion as something only a doctor could do, something only the most trained specialist could perform without endangering the life of the woman."

I can't answer all of your questions, but that one seems resolved.

The point I was trying to make is that we may not have a choice in the very near future. If the zealots get their way, more women and girls will need abortions and have fewer *legal* options. John and Jane Q Public may be the only sources of DNC procedures, condoms, reproductive health information, any number of things.

Places like this http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Catholic_Town.html
are becoming more normal.

I see your points about safety and optimal outcomes. I do. I understand your reluctance to disseminate this information. You don't have to. I will.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 07:15 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]congogirl

Re: from molly saves the day...

This is not the only type of procedure that people without ten years of training can be trained to do. In Ethiopia, a fistula hospital teaches a few women to specialize in the operation to fix a fistula, and these are mostly women who entered the hospital as patients, not as medical professionals. The acknowledgment here is that yes, of course, a medical professional is preferable. But in the absence of resources, it is better to have a trained specialist than nobody at all.

I do not think that the instructions are for everybody. But I can read how to do lots of things I wouldn't ever care to do, or be able to do. Circulating this type of information has much less harm potential than circulating something like the Anarchist's Cookbook, it seems to me.

And the information that should be circulated with it, if/when needed, would be about groups that had formed to handle providing the service in a manner safest for everyone involved. The client has control as well, and were I in need, I would never visit someone just because s/he was waving around a copy of this document and said bring your own supplies.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 08:00 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]ulitave

Re: from molly saves the day...

absolutely.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 08:28 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]jenndolari

Re: from molly saves the day...

>Places like this
>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Catholic_Town.html
>are becoming more normal.

That plan worked GREAT for the late Western Roman Empire. :)

Oh, wait....
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 10:40 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]onyxlynxx

What occured to me is that we should also be learning more about the herbal alternatives. I know that Pennyroyal is an anbortificant but I am not as sure about the does and even that will not help unless we are able to obtain it or grow it. So now I have a new research project.

Thank you. This helped me realize that I need to quit worrying about what might happen and start preparing for it. I will be greatful if this knowledge isn't needed but I would much rather be prepared and not need it than the other way around.

Personally since while I love kids, I do not feel the need to have my own, it makes me want to get myself fixed while that is still an option.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 10:21 pm (UTC) | | Thread | Reply

[info]ulitave

It's going to happen. that doesn't mean that we have to let anything happen to each other.

Once you have the info, please publish it. We need to revive all the old technology.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 10:30 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]jenndolari

This country is going to hell in a handbasket. If the Mississippification of the United States continues, there may be safe havens in states that decide to secede. But for how long?

I only hope we can get out of it before it goes too far, get out of the country before they close the borders, and hope to be far enough away that when the New Crusades happen, our progeny will have lots of time to prepare before it gets to them.

I may sound like a raving loon...but I see it happening if we don't stop anytime soon.
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 10:28 pm (UTC) | | Thread | Reply

[info]ulitave

as my friends from Georgia point out, that succession thing didn't work out so well before and there's no reason to believe it will work out again.

Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 10:34 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]jenndolari

True. I do believe that it'll happen though. It may not suceed, but it'll happen.

The idea is to find a neighbor's house to stay at, on the way out of Dodge. :)
Posted on Mar. 1st, 2006 10:42 pm (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply

[info]liddle_oldman

Dude. This is frelling samizdat.

How has it come to this?
Posted on Mar. 2nd, 2006 04:27 am (UTC) | | Thread | Reply

[info]ulitave

Battlestar Galatica quotes running through my head today...

"How, when, why, doesn't really matter right now."

"The war is over. We lost."
Posted on Mar. 2nd, 2006 05:15 am (UTC) | | Parent | Thread | Reply